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Hope for Islam?
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler was a Catholic by birth, and the Nazi regime never attempt to remove religion from their country. That's not an atheist regime, and in fact they played to the traditional

Nice to see you didn't include any source on your numbers, but I'm . And the inflated numbers here include the deaths from famine under communism, but earlier you claim these were murders driven by Atheism.

Estimates for just the crusades are 9 million people killed (from a world with about 10% of the 20th century's population). The fact they had to do this by hand shows how virulent religion can motivate people. And realize this is one area - you also had the Muslim wars of conquest, the Muslim invasions of the Balkans and Vlad's counterfighting . . . how about witch burnings? The Inquisition? John Knox and his crazy followers up in Scotland? The Shi'ite Sunni fights? Pogoms of the Jews in Russia? Yeah, religion never hurt anyone.


Quote:
A welfare state is a welfare state, Comrade.


Neither the USSR or the PRC was a welfare state.
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Eric Metro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

prozacrefugee wrote:
Hitler was a Catholic by birth, and the Nazi regime never attempted to remove religion from their country. That's not an atheist regime, and in fact they played to the traditional


Played to the traditional... and then? Can you finish the sentence?

I never said the Nazis or Hitler were Athiest. I also said you don't need to count them.
--

So Obama was born a Muslim. Glad you agree with me on that.

German Christians loved Hitler. He talked about Christianity in his speeches.

Hitler's religion, what he practiced, was a belief in the occult. This is well documented. Call him a convert from Christianity if you want. Or you can label him a Polytheist if you insist he believed in Christ in addition. He was also fascinated with Islam, and maintained an intimate relationship with the Grand Mufti.

prozacrefugee wrote:

Nice to see you didn't include any source on your numbers, but I'm .

And the inflated numbers here include the deaths from famine under communism, but earlier you claim these were murders driven by Atheism.


"But I'm" what? Can you finish a sentence?

What I actually said was Mao and Stalin are have killed more people than Religion has. Stalin starved millions of people by "redistributing" the food they grew.

All Communists are Atheists.

prozacrefugee wrote:

Estimates for just the crusades are 9 million people killed (from a world with about 10% of the 20th century's population). The fact they had to do this by hand shows how virulent religion can motivate people. And realize this is one area - you also had the Muslim wars of conquest, the Muslim invasions of the Balkans and Vlad's counterfighting . . . how about witch burnings? The Inquisition? John Knox and his crazy followers up in Scotland? The Shi'ite Sunni fights? Pogoms of the Jews in Russia? Yeah, religion never hurt anyone


Keep counting.
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djjagdish
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Metro wrote:

Do not confuse military action with political ideology.


What's the difference, in terms of this discussion? Military action usually springs from political or religious ideology and is justified on those grounds to soldiers and citizens. Even if you want to throw out the crusades in your comparisons to Stalin (which would be very convenient for you, but ultimately ignorant), look at things like killings of protestants by "bloody" Mary or Catholics by Cromwell, and the same type of things that have gone on forever in India between Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs. Look at what the Christians did in Africa alone, and Stalin is left in the dust. And I hate Stalin more than any figure who has ever lived, believe me, but he can't stack up to religion as far as killing of innocents goes.
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Metro wrote:

So Obama was born a Muslim. Glad you agree with me on that.


Uh what?


Quote:
Hitler's religion, what he practiced, was a belief in the occult. This is well documented.


No, it's not actually. You should have no problem finding that documentation if it's true.

Many prominent Nazis, Hesse being the most prominent, were occultists (Thule society). Hitler was not.
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djjagdish wrote:
And I hate Stalin more than any figure who has ever lived, believe me, but he can't stack up to religion as far as killing of innocents goes.


Exactly.
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Eric Metro
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Metro wrote:

Keep counting.


Numbers?
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ChannelZero
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

first of all saying religion is "bad" or religion is "good" is like saying life is "bad" or life is "good". religion is a perfect shade of 50% grey. and it will always exist in some form because it is inherent to humanity. get used to it.

i am a very religious person and not once have i used my religion violently.

the idea that muslims are evil is ridiculous. some of the nicest people i know are muslim.

Eric Metro wrote:
Atheists.


i also think hard-core atheists are as bad as religious fundamentalists. if you're orthodox anything you're forcing your beliefs on others. to my mind, richard dawkins is no better than abdel moussa.

granted, there are religious extremists within every creed and their actions should be brought to light so real change can happen. however, for every extremist there are a dozen nice church-going ladies who donate food and clothes to the homeless; a dozen former criminals who found allah in prison and it SAVED THEIR LIVES; a dozen jews who leave their thankless jobs at heartless corporations to join a kibbutz and plant trees in israel; or even a single buddhist like myself, who found a new reason to live thanks to a life-philosophy that makes sense to him.

voiceofTruth wrote:
Christianity does more to help its fellow man than any other religion. Bottom line.


ridiculous!
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Kenkajin 2.0
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voiceofTruth wrote:
Christianity does more to help its fellow man than any other religion. Bottom line.
Christianity, or more accurately those people claiming to be Christians, gave us the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the African slave trade, genocide practiced against natives, anti semitism, the exploitation of Asia, etc etc. I would posit that Christianity has killed and exploited more people than any other religion in the world.
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Eric Metro
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenkajin 2.0 wrote:
voiceofTruth wrote:
Christianity does more to help its fellow man than any other religion. Bottom line.
Christianity, or more accurately those people claiming to be Christians, gave us the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the African slave trade, genocide practiced against natives, anti semitism, the exploitation of Asia, etc etc. I would posit that Christianity has killed and exploited more people than any other religion in the world.

The Crusades were a response to the Islamic invasion of Europe. A request for help was sent from the Byzantines who were under attack to Rome.

Christianity and Islam have killed so many people it's hard to count.
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Eric Metro
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChannelZero wrote:
first of all saying religion is "bad" or religion is "good" is like saying life is "bad" or life is "good". religion is a perfect shade of 50% grey. and it will always exist in some form because it is inherent to humanity. get used to it.

i am a very religious person and not once have i used my religion violently.

the idea that muslims are evil is ridiculous. some of the nicest people i know are muslim.

Eric Metro wrote:
Atheists.


i also think hard-core atheists are as bad as religious fundamentalists. if you're orthodox anything you're forcing your beliefs on others. to my mind, richard dawkins is no better than abdel moussa.

granted, there are religious extremists within every creed and their actions should be brought to light so real change can happen. however, for every extremist there are a dozen nice church-going ladies who donate food and clothes to the homeless; a dozen former criminals who found allah in prison and it SAVED THEIR LIVES; a dozen jews who leave their thankless jobs at heartless corporations to join a kibbutz and plant trees in israel; or even a single buddhist like myself, who found a new reason to live thanks to a life-philosophy that makes sense to him.

voiceofTruth wrote:
Christianity does more to help its fellow man than any other religion. Bottom line.


ridiculous!


Someone has never read the Koran.

Why waste time posting when you could read the Koran and see for yourself.
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ChannelZero
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Metro wrote:
The Crusades were a response to the Islamic invasion of Europe. A request for help was sent from the Byzantines who were under attack to Rome.


the crusades were really a battle against the turks (recently converted muslims), but the irony is the crusaders would have fared better if they had just fought the turks and not killed arab muslims, who were trying to form an alliance with the crusaders to fight their common enemy (the turkish empire).

and yes i've read the koran. the thing is, you can't take scripture literally... most religious scripture contains horrible sentiments which is why western religions have become so corrupt (too much scripture, not enough gurus). i still stand by my statement that some of the nicest people i know are muslim.

not trying to claim islam is better than christianity or vice versa, but if you take the christian bible literally you are encouraged to own slaves, hate jews and there are even multiple calls for the christian equivalent of jihad....


The Christian God wrote:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people


The Christian God wrote:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


so there are two examples of "christian jihad" pulled straight from the bible... and believe me there are plenty of extremist christians who take scripture literally. the lesson is.... update yourself by following mystic paths (not scripture) and thereby learn the true word of god, not what some foolish humans wrote centuries ago.

Eric Metro wrote:
Someone has never read the Bible.

Why waste time posting when you could read the Bible and see for yourself.


FIXED!! Razz
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Metro wrote:

The Crusades were a response to the Islamic invasion of Europe. A request for help was sent from the Byzantines who were under attack to Rome.


Do people honestly not know that the Crusaders sacked Byzantium, and that's one of the major reasons it's Istanbul today?
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voiceofTruth
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Many of us would be startled if we are told that in the 9th century, an Arab fleet based in Sicily sailed up the Tiber and occupied and sacked Rome and the Vatican for days together till they were defeated and expelled by the papal militia along with the armies of the Holy Roman empire and Frankish contingents. This attack was brief, mercifully very brief, but the Arabs could reach Rome - a feat that even Hannibal could not achieve! To be precise the Arab attack took place on August 28, in the year 846 CE when the Arabs arrived at the mouth of the river Tiber and sailed into Rome.

The Arabs did not succeed in entering the fortified inner city of Rome that was defended by the Romans, but the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul, in today’s Vatican that lay outside the fortified boundaries of Rome, were violated by the Arabs. The Pope Leo IV had to briefly flee Rome and appeal for help from the neighboring kingdoms.

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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^nobody's denying that the Muslims had invaded Christendom several times in the middle ages, the issue is the erroneous claim that the Crusades were motivated solely to help the Byzantines.
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