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uneducated "liberal" youngsters should read a book
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Nick
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: uneducated "liberal" youngsters should read a book Reply with quote

don't get me wrong, like many of you, i also threw my vote away on mindless idealism, but images like these are very discouraging:





these borderline deficient, che guevara worshiping dullards could do well by putting down the bong, and picking up a history book Rolling Eyes
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jaydee
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well,im not exactly a fan of communism,but what has capitalism created? several trillion dollars in credit card debt..several trillion dollars in mortgages/student loans/business loans gone bad...at least 200 billion dollars lost every year to white-collar health insurance fraud... much more then 200 billion dollars lost every year to other types of fraud such as automobile insurance... untold quadrillions of dollars of damage done to the environment due to rampant "capitalism"

even if america was to become totally socialist or communist..people would still go to school,and work, and innovate..because its ingrained into the human psyche to do so.not everyone likes to lay around all day.
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jaydee
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and anyway,besides the ipod(which truly could have been created anywhere)..can you name one amazing american invention that has come out in the past 8 years..with capitalism.

..oh and medical inventions and successes dont count,because

a) they are cancelled out by the poisonous and greedy pharmeceutical industry..

b) even with communism ,medical science would be government supported and funded.
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few communist Stalinist idiots out there - there's also conservatives who love to fly soviet flags at left wing events to go "see? They want to put people in gulags!" Neither reflects the current youth or left wing.

The state capitalism of the USSR was one of the most deadly and repressive regimes the world has seen. Wanting social justice for the world and a fair economic system is very different than supporting tyranny.
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3WL
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaydee wrote:
and anyway,besides the ipod(which truly could have been created anywhere)..can you name one amazing american invention that has come out in the past 8 years..with capitalism.

..oh and medical inventions and successes dont count,because

a) they are cancelled out by the poisonous and greedy pharmeceutical industry..

b) even with communism ,medical science would be government supported and funded.


Capitalism creates the best incentives for innovation. Other systems do not.
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3WL wrote:
jaydee wrote:
and anyway,besides the ipod(which truly could have been created anywhere)..can you name one amazing american invention that has come out in the past 8 years..with capitalism.

..oh and medical inventions and successes dont count,because

a) they are cancelled out by the poisonous and greedy pharmeceutical industry..

b) even with communism ,medical science would be government supported and funded.


Capitalism creates the best incentives for innovation.


To a degree - if capitalism degenerates into monopolistic oligarchy it's in the interest of the haves to try and reduce innovation to avoid competition.

Another issue is that where innovation is applied to may be ultimately unprofitable in the long run - effort is put into designing Hummers rather than clean energy, even though the latter is ultimately more profitable for the society as a whole.

Capitalism isn't the market. Markets work great for bringing buyers and sellers together. Capitalism is the best system - if you're a capitalist. Most Americans are not, few own controlling capital. I'd recommend a book called The Ownership Solution for more on that topic.

Quote:
Other systems do not.


The Soviet system was very innovative (first in space), but at a terrible human cost. The incentive was basically "you work for us or you die".

HOWEVER I would ask what's the difference between that and the ultimate incentive for the lower classes in unfettered capitalism, which is "you work for us or you starve".
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djjagdish
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: uneducated "liberal" youngsters should read a Reply with quote

Nick wrote:
don't get me wrong, like many of you, i also threw my vote away on mindless idealism, but images like these are very discouraging:





these borderline deficient, che guevara worshiping dullards could do well by putting down the bong, and picking up a history book Rolling Eyes


How idiotic. Mindless radical zombies cut both ways, who do you think the White Power skinheads who tattoo swastikas on themselves voted for, and does that mean normal people who voted for McCain should be lumped in with them? Yes they all need to read several history books, but these people are not Obama's base by any stretch and it's a retarded thing to imply.
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djjagdish
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaydee wrote:
and anyway,besides the ipod(which truly could have been created anywhere)..can you name one amazing american invention that has come out in the past 8 years..with capitalism.

..oh and medical inventions and successes dont count,because

a) they are cancelled out by the poisonous and greedy pharmeceutical industry..

b) even with communism ,medical science would be government supported and funded.


besides the WW2 era Katyusha rocket launchers and t-34 tanks and after that...what...the Yugo? can you name any invention at all (doesn't even have to be great) that came out of a communist country? In theory maybe it sounds great to you, but ask anyone who escaped the Soviet Union or a North Korean and they will tell you that in practice it's the worst fucking form of government ever (tied with millitary dictatorships).
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Junglist@Large
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: uneducated "liberal" youngsters should read a Reply with quote

Nick wrote:
don't get me wrong, like many of you, i also threw my vote away on mindless idealism


Speak for yourself, dude. I actually thought about my vote.
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Clit Master Flex
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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3WL
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

prozacrefugee wrote:

To a degree - if capitalism degenerates into monopolistic oligarchy it's in the interest of the haves to try and reduce innovation to avoid competition.


This is why we have antitrust law.

Quote:
Another issue is that where innovation is applied to may be ultimately unprofitable in the long run - effort is put into designing Hummers rather than clean energy, even though the latter is ultimately more profitable for the society as a whole.


You're right. I don't think that we should have completely unregulated markets. The government should get involved in funding long-term projects like clean energy if the market won't do it.



Quote:

The Soviet system was very innovative (first in space), but at a terrible human cost. The incentive was basically "you work for us or you die".


This is not a relevant example. At issue is private innovation, not government-funded innovation. While its true that the former wasn't really possible in the USSR, it was available here, just not through NASA.

A better metric, I think, would be the number of patents issued per year...or something along those lines (I'm assuming the USSR did not have patent law)

Quote:

HOWEVER I would ask what's the difference between that and the ultimate incentive for the lower classes in unfettered capitalism, which is "you work for us or you starve".


I'm not a fan of unfettered capitalism, and so I won't defend it.


Last edited by 3WL on Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3WL wrote:

I'm not a fan of unfettered capitalism, and so I won't defend it.


Yeah, I know you're not, and I do think that regulated capitalism with progressive taxation and strong social services is the best growth model out there - the capitalism of FDR, which saved this country from communism. The reason I point this out is that the term 'capitalism' has been redefined by the free market absolutist movements to mean ONLY unregulated, untaxed markets. As such the phrase 'capitalism is the most productive system' is used to immediately try and disqualify regulation, taxation, or social justice for fear of being in Soviet breadlines.
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3WL
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

prozacrefugee wrote:
3WL wrote:

I'm not a fan of unfettered capitalism, and so I won't defend it.


Yeah, I know you're not, and I do think that regulated capitalism with progressive taxation and strong social services is the best growth model out there - the capitalism of FDR, which saved this country from communism. The reason I point this out is that the term 'capitalism' has been redefined by the free market absolutist movements to mean ONLY unregulated, untaxed markets. As such the phrase 'capitalism is the most productive system' is used to immediately try and disqualify regulation, taxation, or social justice for fear of being in Soviet breadlines.


OK, I'm with you on that.

BTW, I edited the post re: the space program.

BTW2, you're one of the few people I enjoy arguing with. I almost wish we disagreed about more. cheers
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fuschia1
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the biggest reasons that republicans are always taping the church is because they think if all people are functioning with a self imposed set of ethics and sense of moral obligation, then there would be no need for government regulation* - unfortunatly this usually does not work because of the obvious or in many cases becomes tainted by progressive cultural sequestration.

*..and I'm thinking why can't this be achieved within the educational system..

My parents have been educators their whole lives and yet they vote against referendums to increase school funding..and I'm always confused - but they say there is no need for more money - the problem is in the gross mismanagement of the current administrations..for example they blame 1 school district for licensing an "expensive" software system when they could just use the one provided by the state for free...be it archaic..

I completely forgot what this thread is about....oh yeah..cheap ass communism - i mean..cheap ass capitalism.

Watch the churches yo..I don't know how they are getting the dough to build some of the ones I see going up.

See how crazy I am?

Churches are for little girls weddings and schools are penitent.
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Last edited by fuschia1 on Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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prozacrefugee
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3WL wrote:

Quote:

The Soviet system was very innovative (first in space), but at a terrible human cost. The incentive was basically "you work for us or you die".


This is not a relevant example. At issue is private innovation, not government-funded innovation. While its true that the former wasn't really possible in the USSR, it was available here, just not through NASA.

A better metric, I think, would be the number of patents issued per year...or something along those lines (I'm assuming the USSR did not have patent law)


Hmmm, I don't think that's possible though - since there was no private ownership in the USSR you can't really seperate private and public research and innovation. Likewise during that time in the US much of the innovation was through government or defense research, and so not public.

But to me it's the total, and how that total effects the average person, that really measures the value of innovation. What matters now in the US is increasing our own innovation - and I do think the green energy program Obama's talking about has one of the best ways to do so.

Yeah, it sucks that we even agree on bikes. cheers
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